copy cad power problems....I think??????

[lintmann]

I tried my kit on the weekend and got mixed results. I set up the power supply as per the manual that came with the kit. It worked really good with smaller items of a few square inches but at around 10 sq" it struggles. I set the power supply at 2-3 volts with the circuit open. With the current turned down I connect the leads and then slowly raise the current until the part starts to slightly bubble...not sure why but the voltage then drops to 1-1.5 volts. I lift the part out of the bath and the voltage goes back up to 2-3...lower it back in and it goes back down to 1-1.5. This set up works great on a few nuts and bolts but I can't get the same bubbling action on larger parts. The larger parts just take on a dull grey silt covered appearance. Also on larger parts of say 10-20 sq" the voltage drops even lower to about .5 or so volts! I would think that my 3 amp power supply is way to small but going by the calculation of 1 amp per 40 sq" it should be able to plate 120 sq"...correct?

This is how my set-up looked before I started. I set the voltage to 3.5 because 2 didn't seem to work...then again neither did 3.5. Bath temp was 112F.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...n/P1010065.jpg

This is it in the tank. Note the amps set at 3A and hardly any bubbles at all.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...n/P1010063.jpg

After one hour this is what it looked like. The black inside is electrical tape to try and reduce the surface area to reduce resistance and increase the voltage.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...n/P1010064.jpg

Then I rinsed it off and wire brushed it and tried to polish it with white scotch brite but the results were quite poor. I should have taken a pic of it then but I wasn't really in a good mood at the time . Then I decided to try and "roll" it in the bath with it just contacting the bath just enough to bring the voltage up. I screwed a piece of copper wire to one of the screw holes in the housing and bent it so that it came straight out the middle so that I could turn it with my fingers. The lead was connected to the end of this wire and just spun on it as I turned the housing. This is what that all looked like. Note the higher voltage, a lot more bubbles and a much brighter housing!!

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...n/P1010068.jpg

As you can see, I did manage to get it plated but I don't think that this is how it's supposed to work.

This next one was how I think it should work. Voltage was set to 2V and the bath was still at 112F. Note that the amperage is still quite high for a few washers and screws but it isn't maxed out on my 3A power supply and that there is slight bubbling. I actualy had to turn it down!

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...n/P1010071.jpg

This was how they looked when I took them out after about 10-15 minutes.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...n/P1010072.jpg

This was how they looked after I rinsed them...I would say that they turned out they way they should.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...n/P1010074.jpg

So now I don't know what to think. It would seem to me that you need obvious bubbles to get a good plating job. All of the smaller items I have done that require me to turn down the power supply turned out really nice and did not require any buffing...just rinse and dry and that was it. Not quite sure what to think at this point...

One interesting thing happened though as I was TRYING to plate one of the expansion tank straps. The strap was in the tank turning all dull gray when all of a sudden it started to bubble and fizz. I looked at the power supply and it had some pretty high numbers...don't remember what they were because it was kind of a blur as I went for the current knob to turn it down. These few second of fizzing actually blew away some of the dull grey and you could actually see some nice bright zinc on the strap. But when I went to turn the current back up nothing happened. I played with it for a bit and then realized something was wrong. I am getting NO current at all now and my 0-18 volt power supply now goes from about 6-21 volts! So I guess I need another power supply. It was an ebay one from a place in San Jose and came with a one year warrany so I'll see how good thier warranty is north of the border.

Despite not being able to plate any of the larger items it still is lots of fun trying to do this myself...just a little frustrating when it doesn't work the way the book says it should.

So from what I have shown you all here, am I doing it right or not. I was using the bubbling action as a guide because that was when it produced the best results. If that is correct then something is wrong with the 1 amp/40 sq in formula because the tank strap is about 20-25 sq in and there is no way in he^l that my 3 amp power supply would come close to doing it. Any opinions, thoughts and suggestions are appreciated in my plating quest.

Since I initialy wrote this post I have tried another 0-30v/3a power supply and got the same poor results. I also used 10 ga wire to help reduce any resistance but that didn't help either. It just seem like 3 amps is way to little to plate anything larger than 5-10 sq". Is the fact that my voltage is dropping so much when the part is in the bath a clue or is that normal??

Any help here would really be appreciated.

[seanc]

lintmann:

A little more info needed

1. Is this the original CopyCad formula ot the "new" formula"
2. Are you using the brightener?

DO NOT try to adjust your voltage. Only adjust the current to whatever is needed for the size of the part(s).

Turn the voltage all the way up, then set your current to what you want, and the voltage will self-adjust. It will ALWAYS be low, depending on the size of the part.

You need more current. Use 75-100 mA/sq-in for the old formula, 140 mA/sq-in for the new formula.

W/the old formula, your 3 amp supply is good for 40 sq-in optimum. You can get 60 sq-in out of it (50 mA/sq-in), but results won't be as good.

W/the new formula, you're good to 22 sq-in.

DO NOT use fizzing as a guide, it's not reliable or repeatable. Large parts will fizz more than small parts, and it depends on both bath temperature and distance from part to anode.

There's no way around this, you'll have to calculate the surface area fairly closely. Surface area of parts is quite deceptive. Guessing is usually WAY off.

Your nuts & bolts came out good because you plated them at almost 2 amps, and from experience I'd say each of those small bolts is about 2 sq-in, plus the other parts, probably came close to 20 sq-in total, so you plated them at @ 90-100 mA/sq-in.

And DO NOT handle or try to "polish" the parts right away. Rinse well & let dry overnight before handling them.

Sean

[lintmann]

Thanks Sean,

I do have the original formula. I confirmed this with Jim Caswell because I thought that this was my problem. And yes I am using the brightener.

So you say not to adjust the voltage. Should I then turn it up to 30 volts and let it adjust itself?

I think you hit the nail on the head by saying that I need more current! I guess I really under estimated my power supply requirment as I will need to plate one part that is just under 120 sq". I used the formula in the manual of 1 amp per 40 sq" but I see, and you confirm that that is way off! How large of a power supply should I need to plate something in the range of 120 sq"? ...or say a 4bbl carb? What brand and size power supply are you using? The one you see in my pics are basically what Caswell sells but with a different name so I assume that it is the same internaly. When I bought my power supply Caswell USA was out of stock but little did I know that Caswell Canada had some...found that out after I bought mine off of ebay. I am getting warranty on the one I got from ebay and they will let me upgrade so I'm trying to decide on how large of one I should get.

I used the fizzing as a guide quite by accident because that was when things worked the best. I tried calculating surface area but unless it's a basic shape I don't know how to do it and very little of what I have is a basic shape...the wiper motor housing in the pic is as basic as it gets for my stuff. From what I understand, commercial platers don't calculate surface areas either because of the complicated parts and the time required to figure out the surface areas. They just turn up the current until it slightly fizzes as well. I just figured that if it works for them that it should work for me but maybe not. Maybe it is still plating but I just don't realize it because of the lack of fizzing. What problems can I get into if I use fizzing as a guide? So far I haven't had any problems but then again I am very new at this and have LOTS to learn!

In regards to polishing...if the part is plated with enough current, is polishing nessecary? The reason I ask is because I experimented a little with some of the smaller parts by putting a very low current(.5amp) through them...so low that they were not fizzing either. I was trying to simulate the dull grey coating that I get when I try to plate larger items. After 5-10 minuites they to looked terrible, just like the dull grey wiper motor housing. Then I turned up the current until they fizzed and you could actually see the dullness going away and nice bright zinc either forming or being uncovered and the dullness went away. This to me would be the prefered way to plate something because polishing is not alway practical like say on a Quadrajet Carb!

Thanks for your quick reply and help so far Sean...I really appreciate it!

Greg

[seanc]

Greg:

So you say not to adjust the voltage. Should I then turn it up to 30 volts and let it adjust itself?

Exactly. As long as the voltage is set HIGHER than the most it will actually have to deliver, that's enough. As you can see in your photos, the voltage has adjusted itself downward to 0.6 & 1.1v during plating. 3-4 volts is plenty until you get into real large parts.

How large of a power supply should I need to plate something in the range of 120 sq"? ...or say a 4bbl carb?

With the original formula, 120" would need about 8-9 amps, that would give you a current density of 70mA/sq-in. It'll work with a bit less, but the plate isn't quite as nice.

What brand and size power supply are you using?

I use a 16v/10A B&K bench supply. Any decent supply that can do Constant Current at the amperage you need will work.

The one you see in my pics are basically what Caswell sells but with a different name so I assume that it is the same internaly.

And it should be fine for up to the 3 amp max.

I used the fizzing as a guide quite by accident because that was when things worked the best. I tried calculating surface area but unless it's a basic shape I don't know how to do it and very little of what I have is a basic shape.

I sympathize, but I have found no shortcuts, and always pre-calculate at least to a rough estimate, then throw in a fudge factor.

Carburetors are particularly tough to calculate. I use graph paper to get an outline of the side, front and top views, and add the square inches that way, then double it to get inside cavities. Just depends on how many odd shaped protrusions & cavities it has.

From what I understand, commercial platers don't calculate surface areas either because of the complicated parts and the time required to figure out the surface areas. They just turn up the current until it slightly fizzes as well.

But commercial platers don't do mixed items, they do all the same item, in approximately the same amount, in a huge barrel, and they've already calculated the size of one item, so the multiplication is easy. They still have to do their preliminary homework.

What problems can I get into if I use fizzing as a guide? So far I haven't had any problems but then again I am very new at this and have LOTS to learn!

It depends on the size of the part. Too much fizzing on a small part will burn. Too little on a large part won't plate well.

It's tricky. The amount of fizzing you get will depend on many variables: the size of the part, the current density, the temperature of the bath, and the distance between part and anodes. Unless you control all of those from batch-to-batch, the fizzing will be different.

Larger parts fizz more than smaller parts, and it's not proportional. eg, a 10" parts puts out MORE than 10x the fizzing of a 1" part.

Higher current densities fizz more; Colder baths fizz more; greater distance between anode and parts fizz more.

In regards to polishing...if the part is plated with enough current, is polishing nessecary?

You want to polish the part BEFORE plating. The plated finish is only as good as finish on the part you start with.

Trying to polish afterwards is not really appropriate, since the plate is very thin, and you can easily polish right through it.

I experimented a little with some of the smaller parts by putting a very low current(.5amp) through them...so low that they were not fizzing either. I was trying to simulate the dull grey coating that I get when I try to plate larger items. After 5-10 minuites they to looked terrible

Yep, a result of insufficient current density.

Then I turned up the current until they fizzed and you could actually see the dullness going away and nice bright zinc either forming or being uncovered and the dullness went away.

So you hit the "sweet spot" at the lower end of the current density. If this works for you, then by all means continue. My concern here is that the initial plate, done at too low a current, might not stick well on the steel. Durability might suffer, I don't know.

Keep at it, and let us know what you find out!

Sean

[seanc]

Greg:

A couple of things I forgot to mention.

1. Your bath temp may be too high. Temp range for the original formula is 60-90º. 60's a bit too cold, but 70-80 works good for me.
   
2. Your wiper motor housing may be too big relative to the size of the anodes.

Commercial recommendations say no more than 1.5 to 1, part to anode size. I tried that once, a 36" part w/24" of anode. It did NOT work well. So I always make sure my anodes are at LEAST as much area as the parts I'm plating.

How big is that housing? Length x diameter. From the picture, I'm guessing about 4" x 4"? If that's close, then that part has near 63" of outer surface area! Even if only 3x3, thats still over 40".

How big are your anodes? Is the inside of the housing completely masked?

Sean

[superjfly]

Originally Posted by seanc

[*]Your bath temp may be too high. Temp range for the original formula is 60-90º. 60's a bit too cold, but 70-80 works good for me.

Is there a faster/better way to heat up the bath than with the aquarium heater? Like could this be done in a large crock pot or roaster? Something that heats up faster. I had my heater in my small 2 gal bucket (insulated) for 5 hours and it went up from 60 to 64 degrees. Meanwhile the degreasser went from 60 to 190 in 3 hours in a crock pot.

Neil

[seanc]

Neil:

Is there a faster/better way to heat up the bath than with the aquarium heater? Like could this be done in a large crock pot or roaster?

I don't know for sure, but I would not use anything but the compatible plastics. Being an acid, it may react adversely w/ceramics.

I had my heater in my small 2 gal bucket (insulated) for 5 hours and it went up from 60 to 64 degrees.

You've either got a defective heater, or too little wattage.

I use a 200w aquarium heater, and it will bring 3 gallons (uninsulated) from 60 to 100º in about an hour.

Sean

[lintmann]

Sean,

"Your bath temp may be too high. Temp range for the original formula is 60-90º. 60's a bit too cold, but 70-80 works good for me."

Yes Sean my bath temp was too high. I set it around 112F as per the Caswell manual. Speaking of that manual...is it just me or are many of the instructions out to lunch? I mean it says that copy cad plates at about 1 amp per 40 sq" and this is way off. Had I known that it required way more current than that I would have bought a much larger power supply right off the bat! If 70-80 is about right then their bath temp is way off too and the temp controller that comes in the kit won't even go that low. The other thing that I have been wondering now is plating thickness. The manual says about .0025" thickness for every 15 minutes of one hour for .001" which is required for yellow chromate. Well I read someplace that as the fizzing slows, the part is near completion of the plating process so that was sort of how I was judging my hardware and brackets. Apparantly yellow chromate needs a minimum of .001" to work and I can say that some of the pieces that I chromated were plated for only 10 minutes or so and they turned out excellent! So either smaller items plate much faster or yellow chromate doesn't need anywhere near .001" to work...I'm just not sure which is right because I'm starting to have a hard time to believe much of the manual...

Anyways, I checked the wiper motor housing and it is 2.5" deep with a diameter of 3.25" and yes the inside was fully taped off with electrical tape. I forgot to measure the anodes but they are the standard ones that come in the kit...I think they are 4x8 but I'm not a 100% sure.

I did manage to plate some items today but it's clear that I'll need a larger power supply. I took the time to try and figure out the area of the largest item I should ever have to plate and it works out to 167 sq". Using the NEW solution what size power supply would you recommend for that size of a part. I figure that I might as well base my power supply requirements on the new solution rather than scrimp and then have to upgrade in a few years if I need to replace my current solution with the newer one.

"Commercial recommendations say no more than 1.5 to 1, part to anode size. I tried that once, a 36" part w/24" of anode. It did NOT work well. So I always make sure my anodes are at LEAST as much area as the parts I'm plating."

...this I didn't know! When you figure out the area of the anodes do you count both sides or just the side facing the part?

Thanks again Sean.

Greg

[seanc]

Greg:

Yes Sean my bath temp was too high. I set it around 112F as per the Caswell manual. Speaking of that manual...is it just me or are many of the instructions out to lunch?

I only have the 2002 manual, so don't what the newer manuals say. My old manual did have some errors, but I thought they would have been corrected by now.

Does your manual cover both the new & original formulas? I know the new formula requires the higher 110º temp.

I mean it says that copy cad plates at about 1 amp per 40 sq" and this is way off.

I think that figure was simply based upon the power brick they supplied in the original kit. It was rated 1.5 volts & 300 mA, and was supposed to be good for 12 sq-in. So if you divide 300 by 12, you get 25 mA/sq-in, which scales up to 1 amp per 40".

BUT, in actual use, that power brick supplied nearly 800 mA, at @ 0.4 volts. 800 ÷ 12 = 67 mA/sq-in, which is toward the lower end of the useful range.

the temp controller that comes in the kit won't even go that low.

Turn it off when you get to 80º. Plate away. If/when the temp drops below 70º, turn it back on again for a while. The temp doesn't need to be precise.

I don't even use a heater in the summer, just run at ambient temp, which is usually 65-70º. In winter, if the bath is colder than 60, I use a cheap glass aquarium heater to bring it up to 70º.

The other thing that I have been wondering now is plating thickness.

Plate thickness depends on current density: higher density plates faster. At 100 mA/sq-in, it will plate 1 mil in about 40-45 minitues.

The NEW formula plates 1 mil in 20 minutes.

Apparantly yellow chromate needs a minimum of .001" to work and I can say that some of the pieces that I chromated were plated for only 10 minutes or so and they turned out excellent!

Yeah, I don't understand that requirement. As far as I know, the chromate only penetrates down a few surface molecules, so real thick plate shouldn't be needed.

I've done many pieces that were only .25-.5 mil, and they chromated nicely.

I checked the wiper motor housing and it is 2.5" deep with a diameter of 3.25" and yes the inside was fully taped off with electrical tape.

Well, that comes out to nearly 34 sq-in. 3 amps should have been enough current, but your anodes are smaller than what I would use as a minimum.

I think they are 4x8 but I'm not a 100% sure.

That's what mine were, cut into two 8x2 strips, gives 32 sq-in ( I do NOT count the side pushed up against the barrel wall). In my tank I had about 2" of each anode above the bath, so immersed area was only 24". Wasn't enough for a 36" piece.

If you turned the anodes on edge, so both surfaces were exposed in the bath, then it might be enough. Problem is, the surface of the part closest to the edge of the anode will get most of the plating current. You'd have to keep rotating the part to get even exposure.

I took the time to try and figure out the area of the largest item I should ever have to plate and it works out to 167 sq". Using the NEW solution what size power supply would you recommend for that size of a part.

The new formula calls for 140 mA/sq-in, so 167 x .140 = 21.98 amps! a 20 amp supply would give you 120 mA/sq-in. I would guess that the new formula would work at that density, but I have not actually tried it. I might try to run a few tests on it, see where the upper/lower range falls in.

Sean

[superjfly]

I agree with Greg on the manual being confusing. One page seems to say one thing, then the next page says another. And then on their webpage they have a PDF of an article with more steps, which are very different than the manual, but the person has great results. I think my best be will be with trial and error and help from this forum.

Greg: Disregard my PM, I ordered a power supply last night. Thanks