Copy Cad beginners problems

[PeterMorley]

I've just bought a copy cad setup from Caswell Europe and I'm struggling.

Got everything set up, tried plating something (a forged steering arm which I bead blasted first and cleaned in warm SD416) and it just doesn't seem to take the plate.

A fine grey foam grows around the piece and the wire it is hanging from, but after 20 minutes or so when I rinse it off there is no sign of any plating on the surface of the object.

There are now some pieces of this foam (looks like miniature lava) floating in the tank.

I'm sure I've done something wrong but can't work out what it is!
I adjusted the voltage to around 1.5 volts which meant a current around 0.5 amps, also tried higher & lower and got similar results.

[XK120DHC]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

I've just bought a copy cad setup from Caswell Europe and I'm struggling.

Got everything set up, tried plating something (a forged steering arm which I bead blasted first and cleaned in warm SD416) and it just doesn't seem to take the plate.

A fine grey foam grows around the piece and the wire it is hanging from, but after 20 minutes or so when I rinse it off there is no sign of any plating on the surface of the object.

There are now some pieces of this foam (looks like miniature lava) floating in the tank.

I'm sure I've done something wrong but can't work out what it is!
I adjusted the voltage to around 1.5 volts which meant a current around 0.5 amps, also tried higher & lower and got similar results.

Peter;
I'm in The Colonies, so I don't know what the "SD416" cleaner is.. Suffice it to say, that you need to use a strong degreaser on the metal, followed by a media blasting (I prefer using sand, folks over here get their panties in a wad over Silicosis.. they assume everyone is an idiot, one does need to take precautions) followed by another thorough degreasing then a cleaning to remove the degreaser (are you seeing a pattern here?? The part needs to be all but sterile)..
Let me sort of "shift gears" here, for a moment.. You said you blasted the part then degreased it.. If you didn't Degrease the part BEFORE you blasted it, the air pressure just drove the dire and grease deeper into the pores of the part.. you noted the part is a "Forged Steering Arm".. and "forged" means a casting which are full of holes, cracks, fissures, etc. You are almost going to have to boil that part in lye to get it clean enough to attempt to plate again..
Okay, back to what I was originally talking about.. once you think you have the part clean enough, perform a "Water Break Test".. you want the water to "sheet" over the cleaned part, NOT bead up.. "beads = grease/dirt, sheet = clean" (I trust you are wearing doctors gloves, your greasy fingers will screw-up a clean part!!).. Now, you are still not ready to begin plating.. you should have done your math homework back in high school and learned how to calculate the surface area of all sorts of geometric shapes.. remember, you said "I'll never use this after I'm out of school".. Guess what?? You were wrong!! (we all were!!) Once you know the surface area in Square Inches (hey, that's what we use over here) you can now set your Plating Power Supply to about 98Milliamps Per Square Inch.. i.e. 10 Square Inches of Surface Area equals 980 Milliamps (or .98 amps) of power.. Don't worry about "volts" the Power Supply will figure out what it needs to "push" the amps and supply that amount.. This is assuming your Power Supply has infinitely adjustable Amps/Milliamps.. If your amps are "fixed" and your "Volts" are adjustable, you are screwed and will need to purchase a proper Plating Power Supply.. the minimum size I feel you need is a 12volt25amp unit, this will handle a lot of small parts.. if you are planning on doing larger parts, figure the Surface Area (all six sides) of the largest part you think you will ever do then buy a proper Plating Power Supply to handle that part and you should be set..
Now, to your current problem (no pun intended).. you didn't say what type of Power Supply you are using, but you did make a comment about "adjusting the voltage".. as previously noted, that is bassackwards. You didn't mention the Surface Area of the part, so we don't know if half an amp is too much or not enough current to plate the CopyCad/Zinc properly. You said you've "got everything set-up", but said nothing about what that "set-up" is (how big are your plating tanks, do you have two anode plates hanging 180 degrees apart from each other, what are the sizes of the anode plates (each), is the "Anode/Cathode (part)" ratio about 1.5:1 or better? If not, this could make for some other problems later.. What temp was your plating bath (in Fahrenheit, we have a helluva time converting to Celsius over here).. Are you running "agitation"? Is it creating a "head" on your tank or barely moving the Plating Solution?? Is your "agitation" a water pump or an air bubbler??
In short, every little detail, no matter how small, is important enough to affect or afflict your plating outcome..
Hope this helps.
Charles

[PeterMorley]

Charles
Thanks for that I get the message about degreasing/blasting etc.
I'll do all that again.

The only thing is the wire used to suspend the parts end up the same, and that is obviously much newer/cleaner than the old suspension component.

I did buy a new constant current power supply so can now be sure about that side of the operation. And maths is a strong point so not too worried about calculating surface area (even in inches!).

"Set up" is as supplied by Caswell Europe - cut the 8" x 4" anode into 2 halves and placed each side of the tank.
SD416 is the degreaser they supply in Europe.
Temperature 30 centigrade (86 fahrenheit I'm told!).
Agitation by the air bubbler supplied by Caswell - it doesn't create a head in the tank.

So I'll get back to the cleaning side and try again.

Thanks
Peter

[XK120DHC]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Charles
Thanks for that I get the message about degreasing/blasting etc.
I'll do all that again.

The only thing is the wire used to suspend the parts end up the same, and that is obviously much newer/cleaner than the old suspension component.

I did buy a new constant current power supply so can now be sure about that side of the operation. And maths is a strong point so not too worried about calculating surface area (even in inches!).

"Set up" is as supplied by Caswell Europe - cut the 8" x 4" anode into 2 halves and placed each side of the tank.
SD416 is the degreaser they supply in Europe.
Temperature 30 centigrade (86 fahrenheit I'm told!).
Agitation by the air bubbler supplied by Caswell - it doesn't create a head in the tank.

So I'll get back to the cleaning side and try again.

Thanks
Peter

Peter;
Unlike most newbies,you seem to have a good grasp on the concept of plating.. That's a good thing..
On the Anode, you will be okay for small parts no larger than about 10 sq inches.. the USA Kits include two 4"x8" anodes, so depending on the size of the parts to be plated, you might think about getting a new pair of Zinc Anodes... just in case. (anodes get consumed, so they will be used eventually).
On the SD416, again, not knowing what the stuff is, I can only say we use a product called SP Degreaser that requires a "working temp" of 140F-200F degrees to "cook" the grease/dirt off the part.. Of course, follow the instructions that came in your kit, but you can "experiment" with some higher temps on old scrap to check-out the results (better, worse, no different, etc.)
You noted the Hanging Wire suffered the same problem as did the cast part, you are correct that this is a good indicator of what's happening, assuming that the wire is not lacquer coated (I ran into that problem, no plating current got to the part at all! Took me a while to figure that "glitch" out!). Of course it wouldn't hurt to insure the "Pos" and "Neg" cables from the Power Supply are connected correctly.. Hooking them uo backwards can ruin certain plating solutions.. I don't know if it will ruin the zinc solution, or not..
That just leaves the temp of the plating solution.. it has a working operating range that it needs to be in to plate effectively.. I assume your kit came with 300Watt Tank Heater and a thermostat of sorts .. if so, double check the solution's temp with a glass cooking "Candy Therometer" (and never use it for cooking, again!).. these are common over here, mostly used for making home-made candy, fudge, etc.
Another thing you need to add to "the business of plating" is some good/detailed records-keeping.. record things like: date, solution temp, if brightener was added or not, plating Start & End times, surface area of part being plated, amps per square inch (A/SI) used on that piece (and a "fixed" A/SI is NOT cast in stone, experiment with that, as well, until you find the one, or range, that works best for you), results of the plating.. i.e. pits, dull, inconsistant coverage, etc. This helps you to figure out what went wrong so you don't make the same mistake again.. Always strive to make new mistakes ;-}
Experiment on some scrap until you get the hang of zinc plating, then post back here to let us know how you did..
Regards.
Charles.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by XK120DHC

Peter;
Unlike most newbies,you seem to have a good grasp on the concept of plating.. That's a good thing..
On the Anode, you will be okay for small parts no larger than about 10 sq inches.. the USA Kits include two 4"x8" anodes, so depending on the size of the parts to be plated, you might think about getting a new pair of Zinc Anodes... just in case. (anodes get consumed, so they will be used eventually).
On the SD416, again, not knowing what the stuff is, I can only say we use a product called SP Degreaser that requires a "working temp" of 140F-200F degrees to "cook" the grease/dirt off the part.. Of course, follow the instructions that came in your kit, but you can "experiment" with some higher temps on old scrap to check-out the results (better, worse, no different, etc.)
You noted the Hanging Wire suffered the same problem as did the cast part, you are correct that this is a good indicator of what's happening, assuming that the wire is not lacquer coated (I ran into that problem, no plating current got to the part at all! Took me a while to figure that "glitch" out!). Of course it wouldn't hurt to insure the "Pos" and "Neg" cables from the Power Supply are connected correctly.. Hooking them uo backwards can ruin certain plating solutions.. I don't know if it will ruin the zinc solution, or not..
That just leaves the temp of the plating solution.. it has a working operating range that it needs to be in to plate effectively.. I assume your kit came with 300Watt Tank Heater and a thermostat of sorts .. if so, double check the solution's temp with a glass cooking "Candy Therometer" (and never use it for cooking, again!).. these are common over here, mostly used for making home-made candy, fudge, etc.
Another thing you need to add to "the business of plating" is some good/detailed records-keeping.. record things like: date, solution temp, if brightener was added or not, plating Start & End times, surface area of part being plated, amps per square inch (A/SI) used on that piece (and a "fixed" A/SI is NOT cast in stone, experiment with that, as well, until you find the one, or range, that works best for you), results of the plating.. i.e. pits, dull, inconsistant coverage, etc. This helps you to figure out what went wrong so you don't make the same mistake again.. Always strive to make new mistakes ;-}
Experiment on some scrap until you get the hang of zinc plating, then post back here to let us know how you did..
Regards.
Charles.

I'm making some progress.

Having checked all the temps (using an infra-red non contact thermometer), I blasted, degreased, acid dipped etc a part - re-checked the surface area (e.g. current) as well and tried again

I also checked the wire wasn't laquered (with a continuity tester).

The part still came out covered in a dull grey (almost furry) layer, but blasting that revealed a zinc finish underneath.

So it is plating but I assume the part shouldn't really have the dull grey coating that needs mechanical removal (briefly dipping in acid solution isn't enough) afterwards.

Could that be from contamination of the solution?
Or is it simply a current issue?

I'm ruling out cleaning issues on the grounds that I've tried items that are pretty clean (blasting, degreaser, acid dipping - and also items fresh from being machined on my lathe), and problems would only really affect part of the item not the whole item.

I will certainly look into more anodes, as you say I will need them for larger parts, what I'm wondering is should I try a new plating solution as well

Thanks
Peter

[seanc]

Peter:

We need more info. You say everything is just right, but haven't given us any numbers to go by, so all we can do it guess.

• How big is your part?
• How much current are you putting into it?
• Are you using original or new formula electrolyte? They DO use different temps & currents.
• Are you using the "brightener"

You haven't mentioned brightener at all, so I assume you are not using it. In this case, parts will always come out dull gray. You have to acid-dip them afterwards to get the silver white color.

You say acid dip doesn't work. What kind of acid, and at what % concentration?

What are you expecting it to look like? If you want a bright silver reflective surface, like commercial nuts & bolts, you need to use either brightener, or chromate. Without either of those, you'll always get a "matte" finish.

A fine grey foam grows around the piece and the wire it is hanging from

That's a good indication that it is indeed plating.

To confirm, throw the part into a 5-10% muriatic acid solution. Within 5-10 minutes it should be fizzing away, stripping off the zinc. If it does NOT fizz, then it did not plate.

There are now some pieces of this foam (looks like miniature lava) floating in the tank.

That's an indication of insufficiently clean part.

I adjusted the voltage to around 1.5 volts

Ignore the voltage, adjust only the current.

Sean

[PeterMorley]

Sean

OK I'm using new formula copy cad solution at 30 centigrade (88 fahrenheit)

Degreaser around 60 degrees centigrade (140 fahrenheit) as in the instructions.

Didn't use brightener at first have tried it since - still not got bright shiny finish, but I'm looking for a dull cad type finish on the larger items anyway (would do the bolts etc afterwards).

Used 1.12 amps for a part that was 8 square inches - have now changed to a 3A supply with controlled current.

Acid dip is 5% hydrochloric.
How long should I expect to dip the part to remove the grey foam that grows during plating?
As you say it does start fizzing and removing the zinc after a few minutes (less than five) - but before it has removed all the grey.

I've got yellow chromate and have tried that on parts that were plated without brightener and it rubs off and doesn't make the part shiny.

Peter

[seanc]

Peter:

I'm using new formula copy cad solution at 30 centigrade (88 fahrenheit)

The new formula calls for 110ºF. I have never tried it at less than that, so can't say how much of a difference it makes.

but I'm looking for a dull cad type finish on the larger items anyway

In that case, even when it has plated correctly, parts will be dull gray, and you'll need an acid dip to turn them silver/white.

Heres before & after photos, w/out brightener:
Before and After

Used 1.12 amps for a part that was 8 square inches

That's right on for the new formula.

Acid dip is 5% hydrochloric.
How long should I expect to dip the part to remove the grey foam that grows during plating?

That should do it within a few seconds! The change in color is quite obvious (if it's plated properly), and you just leave it until it stops changing. In my cases that's never more than 5-7 seconds or so. I've never actually timed it.

Sean

[PeterMorley]

According to the English instructions 88 Fahrenheit is right for the solution they supply - is it different? Maybe I should try it warmer (how do you do that - the aquarium heater won't go higher.

My parts come out with a much heavier coating than the one in your photo - I'll try to plate something today and post some photos.

As I said my coating is much heavier so it takes a lot longer for the acid solution to remove it.

[seanc]

Peter:

According to the English instructions 88 Fahrenheit is right for the solution they supply - is it different?

Well, the European chemicals might be different than US. I don't know.

In the US:

• new formula uses .140A/sq-in at 110º F
• old formula uses .075-.100 A/sq-in at 60-90º F

You're using the new formula current at the old formula temperature.

You might want to contact Caswell Europe to confirm correct current & temperature.

Sean