oven question

[duke]

hmmm-- if it aint one thing it's 40 others

cheers

[Fireblade]

You seem to be going down the same path I did when I tried doing larger and larger parts, HOW in the H@LL do I fit this in there!!!! Well, if I were you, and if your limited to what you have. You may want to try and fab up some support legs on that bottom rack. Just high enough to keep it off the element. The metal the elements are made out of, even if they have legs, are only meant to hold their own weight, not the weight of a valve cover. If you are like me, later on down the road, you are bound to put something heavier on it and sooner or later, the element is going to bend all out of whack. If you have a welder, you can just weld some bolts or some round stock to the corners. If you don;t have a welder, go to a hardware store and search for some small U-clips that you can bolt around the existing rack and, say a bolt, to firmly hold them in place at the sides. It would be easier this way to slide the rack in with the part on top as well, and eliminate any hot spots due to direct contact with the element itself.

[duke]

thanks for your help fireblade.
my neighbour is a welder
"that's what friends are for"
cheers

[11111111]

I am getting ready to fabricate a custom oven and was planning on installing a few oven elements. Does anyone know of a better element? They seem to work so well and last so long in a range it just seems like the way to go. Also I thought I read somewhere in here that ovens use 110 to operate the elements? I have not checked into this yet but I would think a 220 element would be a lot better (less amp draw and faster warm up). I am also putting a fan inside to circulate the air for a even temp. I see the commercial units use this and it makes a lot of sense. I am planning on building the oven 12ft long, 4 feet tall and 5ft wide this will alloy me to bake my custom exhaust systems and chassis (ceramic coat). In the plans I have drawn I am installing a divider every two feet and a switch for every burner so I can heat only the space I need. I would really like some input from those of you that have built your own ovens. I have a 100amp breaker I am putting in for this so power wont be a problem. also I am planning on a steel oven box with bracing every two feet spot welded to the sheet metal box and 10 inches of insulation around the intire oven. The top is going to be lited by a hand crank winch and cable straight up to the roof to get it out of the way.
Jeff

[Hemi-T]

Just make sure your fan turns veeeeeery sloooooooowwww or you'll blow the powder of your parts before it has a chance to cure

Hemi-T

[Fudd]

I have been playing with powder coating for a few months and have a couple of questions:

- Would it not be better to re-wire the stove elements to burn at the same time? Is there anything to watch out for when doing this?
- I also plan to build a larger oven (3'X3'X6') in the future and also wonder about elements: standard stove elements or I also have access to strip heater elements (220V 1500 watt). Which would be better?
- On the fan: How fast and what blade size? Where is it mounted and pointed?

Thanks,

Scott

[non-stick]

Fudd..... welcome to the boards.

As for ovens and sizes and elements,etc. Every flavor in the world is out there with more than quite a few schools of thought on the process. This seems to be a constant topic fo discussion with no right or wrong asnwers (where to place elements, how big an oven should I have,etc). One sees a myriad of answers posted because in essence, they are all correct in one way or another. The oven used for the hobbyist who finishes fly-fishing equipment will no doubt, be different from one that enjoys the hobby of coating motorcycle frames. Now should it be. If your needs meet or exceed 1500W elements and your parts are large, might I suggest an IR system perhaps? Caswell has a fantastic offering of equipment in this area for you to choose from. Are they good for EVERYHTING to be coated? I have to honestly say no.... but then again, a chamber type oven (the kind that you are referring to) isn't good for everything either. IR is good for a lot, if not most things and has it's advantages to whereas chambers also have thier strong points.

I'd seriously consider where you are going to be a hobbyist a couple of years from now (this goes for all of you) and see what your needs will be at that point. After all..... you don't buy a computer that "just gets the job done" in today's world, do you? I should hope not. You bite the bullet and pay for the good model that's going to last you for some time to come with no further outlay. The very same principal can be held in the powder coating world. If you see yourself using a lot of matte black, why order just the one pound from Caswell? Get a larger quantity and not only save in the long-run.... but make sure your needs are met in the future when you call for it. They are nothing more than "tools" that you should rely on. A toll to ensure you get the best product available to suit your needs in a finish. Powder, application gun and oven... they are nothing more than "tools". I've learned long ago to ally yourself with the best you can afford at the time as when you least expect it, the cheaply made tools (and companies.... no jab intended to the competition) will always let you down. This is why Caswell excels at it's business. Ask Dale how he was treated by Caswell when he was in a pinch. Caswell Inc is another "tool" for him to rely upon to get the job done right the first time. Your oven is no different. Figure out your needs and growth potential (all of you!) and write down what it should consist of. THEN you will actually have a blueprint of the direction you will need to take in assembling your equipment. I think you'll be quite surprised how often you all answer your own questions on this subject. Give it a shot and post it here with what you've come up with. I'd be interested in hearing how the needs vary from your original questions...... Russ

[11111111]

Russ can you tell us some of the differences in chamber cooking to IR systems. I thought you could not do both sides at the same time with IR. MOveable lights are much easier than a large oven. The shops around here only bake so I thought the lamps were only for a special need. What are the distances for the IR lamp and how many would it take to do say a sprint car chassis. Or a header, valve cover etc. I simply don't know much about the IR so if you can give me a widget example (Tube chassis) of how I would set up for this and how I monitor the process to completion I would greatly appreciate it.
I don't have many parts that would fit in a oven so I am very interested in anything that saves space in my work shops.
Jeff

[non-stick]

AHA! Somebody who actually *asked* for a widget example this time. I love the new guys, they havn't had it up to thier eyeballs with my widgets as of yet,lol.

Let's just focus on your immediate "pro's" and "con's" as a hobbyist, shall we? Often time we are limited in funds, space and ability. This is nothing new. One thing we have plenty of is time to play with all sorts of neat toys. This is a good thing to encounter on the IR path if you have large parts. Being a fellow car enthusiast, I see your plight. Perhaps you'd rather spend the thousands of dollars ( it could reach that high considering elements, controllers, wiring, insulation, metal, time involved, etc... or even the outright purchase of said "large" oven) on your car instead of an oven that takes up valuable space. One might even argue the point that maybe at the moment at least, you don't foresee yourself doing any more than 6 sprint car frames a year at best. This is where a manipulative system such as an IR source comes into play. The advantages are this : low cost, low storage structure, ease of use and lateral use within your coating shop for other purposes (they can be used to dry a part after phosphating rather quickly, or as a heat source if you have a cold garage and you need it momentarily near you). Disadvantages of the system include : tough work status if you intend to coat for everyday use, longer time spent on car frames and such compared to an oven because one must "move" the source around to get a cure, uncured portions of substrate due to the IR wave not being able to see around corners effectively. As you can see... you have some thinking to do.

We'll get back to your car frame in a minute. Let's flesh out your other parts first, shall we? For valve covers and the like.... I'd get a second hand used kitchen oven. It's not that you can't use the IR light without great results.... but I see them as an "add on" to the smaller ovens. Use the kitchen oven for the intake and valve covers, bracketry,etc..... use the IR for frames and parts that won't fit into the smaller oven. Chances are, you'll be using the smaller oven quite a bit, and the IR only once in a while. ( many small things on one car, only one frame per car,etc). Think of it this way.... a "marriage" of the two methods of heat, if you will. One is a smaller chamber and indirect so that it heats a given void of space, the other is direct and more focused. You can coat a bridge if you really desired to do such a thing. Now are you seeing how they both have thier purposes? Now... with that said, back to your car frame.....

An IR light only heats what it can see, as stated above. Therefore, logic dictates that if you can see it, so can the light wave. Where this comes into play on your tube chassis is this..... standard coat in say... matte black for example purposes. Position the IR light over the front section of the frame and you'll notice momentarily the cure process begin to take shape. Once a predetermined amount of time has passed (as dictated by your powder guidelines) you move the light to the next area and so on down the line until you part is cured. It may take a little more time this way, but I'm willing to bet you don't have the space or money right now to just go buy or build a large oven to fit it all. Another use for the IR that is an advantage is "on the spot" repair. Let's just say that you have a major coating failure in an area due to say.... you had to reweld in a new section from a hit. Well..... this is where an IR would be a lot better. As anybody here can tell you, to re-coat in an oven means sanding everything for adhesion and then coating it all over again. An IR light can simply be moved to said welded area and you can coat just what you need to without having to heat the entire mass. Pretty sweet,huh? When you're done with the lamps, you can just fold them up out of the way and save some space for something else without having to work around a big oven forever. Call it a "collapsable oven" if you will. It may take you longer for the overall cure, but you make up for it in square footage and money saved. Who knows, down the road if you find yourself doing more and more frames, you can actually get a bigger shop and build or buy that large oven. I whole heartedly endorse you to do just that if you have the means. The IR will still be there as a back-up and forever ready for those jobs needing touch up and such. (not to mention, a quite effective parts dryer after phosphating even after you have your big oven).

Personally, I recommend for your purposes, 2 of PRODM2000 listed on this page : http://www.caswellplating.com/powder/caswell_lamp.html or even one PRODM9000 and one PRODM2000 for your purposes. Set the lamps facing one another (in the M2000 instance) and the light refelcting into each other will negate and anything inbetween will be cured having been trapped in the midway. The fold easily and out of the way and lemme tell ya, you can't even compare the price between a huge industrial oven and the price of the IR's (2 ea. of M2000 cost 600 bucks). The gap between the two is just that large. We're talking thousands saved here as well as the above mentioned space. The only thing it costs you is a little extra time. But like I said... if that's even a huge factor, go for the M9000..... bigger work space = less time adjusting lamp position. Plug em in, use em, then move them out of the way. Quick, clean and cost efficient. All of the above holds true for your headers as well. Just hang them on something that will swivel and keep the lamp in one position. When one area is cured, rotate 1/4 turn, cured again, another turn. Keep doing that until you've rotated the part 360 degrees and it will be done. Typical distance for short wave IR is 12 inches, and medium wave is approx 16 inches from distance to part. Hope that helps answer your questions bud.... keep us posted as to what you finally settle on,k? .... Russ

[11111111]

Well it sounds like IR lights are definetly worth having. When I am under the IR lights and the peice is bigger than the light what happens to the powder coat in the over lap area.
I don't think I have ever used a IR light before. Can you bring me up to speed on how it works.
Also on my chassis how far out will the light reach to be effective and with these lights if you get to close does it change the operating temp of the surface that is being worked.
I was thinking that I can hang the chassis and place lights under and above and on both sides. This should eliminate any shadowing, will this work like a oven.
I usually do most projects a little overboard and error on the overkill side. But in this case I plan on doing just a few chassis's a year and most likely at about the same time and I would prefer not to use up such a large area in my garage with the oven.
Our actual race shop is about 35 miles from my home and I would certainly think that having the ability to make powder coat repairs their with out a total dis assembly and transfer to the oven at my work shop would be so much more conveninet.
I guess my big question is about the over lap in lighting when you move to the next section and how many lights would it take to make the chassis think it was in the oven that I was going to build so that it could be done all at once? Or is this necessary? I am truly green to this so all your insight is greatly appreciated. All the coating I have done to this point is with the hobby plating equipment.
Thanks
Jeff