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Trying to aereate larger tanks EFFECTIVELY. HELP!!!!!!!!

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  • neilfj
    replied
    I don't have any way to measure the amount of agitation required. Each setup is going to be different, depending on the size and shape of the item being anodized, the amount of electrolyte, the size of the container, etc.

    The general rule would be "as rapid as possible without splashing electrolyte", but even this is going to be trial & error to some extent.

    My feeling is that the aligator clips are not going to be sufficient for the LCD process. The area of the anode under the clips is not going to be water tight, so it will develop a anodized coating, which will cause an increase in resistance, which means it will draw a higher voltage to deliver the proper current density. Depending on the capacity of your power supply, it may peak the voltage before the surface develops a sufficient coating for dyeing.

    You may have to increase your current density so that the power supply doesn't reach its max voltage. It's kind of a balancing act in that by increasing the current density too high may reduce the dyeability of the work.

    One of the critical aspects of Fibergeek's LCD process is that the connection to the work piece be watertight. Although the clips will work with the limitations and potential issues previously mentioned, it is highly recommended that the anode wire be securely attached to the work piece.

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  • potsked
    replied
    well i understand the danger of splashing the elctrolyet, but that would be negated if the amount of vibration needed was low enough. do you know how much vibration would be necessary to remove the hydrogen bubbles?

    I have considered the loosiening of the parts, but i was planning on upgrading to titanium alligator clips to secure the parts sooner or later and figured they would have enough of a grip. would you know if they provide adequate hold?

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  • neilfj
    replied
    potsked;

    To answer your question, yes, it is possible to agitate the parts rather than the solution, if you're careful.

    Unless you have something to control the amount of movement, you run the risk of splashing the electrolyte and even creating an acid mist, which we are trying to eliminate. The other risk is that the constant and rapid movement required may also loosen your electrical connection.

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  • potsked
    replied
    is it possible to agitate the parts without circulating the electrolyte or removing them from water?

    i was thinking if one could create the right type of tank bar one could simply attach some sort of vibrating tool or motor to cause the parts to vibrate in the electrolyte, thus removing the hydrogen bubbles.

    i mention this because i just bought a whole **** load of equipment that pertained to aeration and then i found this thread.

    the aeration wasn't working for me, and i was hoping someone could find a tool or motor that could vibrate on the rack while the parts are being anodized.

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  • Fibergeek
    replied
    Whistule,
    If you have no hydrogen bubbles sticking to your work, your method works for you. Nothing succeeds like success.

    I really shouldn't complain; I've been called worse things, but my moniker is Fibergeek (or Fibregeek) not Fiber Geek.

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  • whistule
    replied
    Eastex,

    Good work. Those certainly look the ticket for air agitation. I am wondering if you have considered filtration into the equation. Here's some info >> http://www.pfonline.com/articles/pfd0320.html . I notice commercial systems use either air or pump agitation with 'shower head' like dispersers in the tanks to give wide coverage rather than a collection of single streams. The pumps seam to be connected in a loop dragging solution from the bottom of the tank and through a filter and then the pump. The main reason for pump agitation seams to be they can add in filter the solutions in the same process hence prolonging the life of the chemicals. I can't see myself going to these lengths for some time but interesting all the same.

    Fiber, I'm thinking the reason an aquarium air pump is sufficient for me is because despite them being bigger all my tanks are tall and thin so it takes fewer holes in the air line to get good enough coverage.

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  • Easttex
    replied
    I've done a bit more research and found most lines that are using air for agitation run regenerative blowers. They are kind of like a turbo squirrel cage fan of sorts (multiple vanes inside an enclosure mounted on the side of an electric motor.) The ones that I have been looking at for a setup the size I'm running are about $250-500 unfortunately. They are high flow low pressure oilless air source....Just what the doctor ordered. I'm going to dig a little deeper trying to find a cheaper alternative.
    Thanks for the input,
    EasTTex
    PS I'm still entertaining good ideas.

    Leave a comment:


  • lastone75
    replied
    you can probly use a small air bursh compresser they produce about a constint 30 psi. also a sears (craftsman) compresser that is oilless would work. with a comoresser you would still need to run an in line water/ oil separater and that should be sufficant since you shouldn't be realy needed more then 20 to 30psi.

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  • Easttex
    replied
    I've heard that a compressor/regulator set up will introduce oil and other contaminates into the baths, although I considered this set up before learning of this potential problem. As you said a shopvac would have to be filtered on the intake side so as not to produce dust and other undesirable elements into the solution. Any ideas how much commercial air spargers are and what pressures they produce and at what flow rate? I hate to think that my only option is to go with a professional grade setup for a modest tank line. There has got to be something really clever that will work well and save me some bucks. I really appreciate the input
    Thanks,
    Easttex

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  • neilfj
    replied
    The best solution would be to use a compressor with regulator to control the pressure and output. A shop-vac would probably work, but it would have to be filtered. Blowing dirt and dust into the solution can't be anything but bad, not to mention the noise.

    Easttex: Yes, the shaft would have to be extended, but you could use a wood dowel for this, or aluminum rod, along with an adapter or clamp to connect from the shaft to the extension. You wouldn't need much shielding for the motor as you don't have to deal with the corrosive mist, but shielding to protect against accidental splashes would probably be a good idea.

    Leave a comment:


  • Easttex
    replied
    I appreciate the input guys, but back to the original question. Whats the best air source for air agitation? I'm sure the aquarium impeller pump works fine, but I'm somewhat skeptical about running anything in my anodize tank thats not a recommended material (magnets and a steel shaft.) I need to set up agitation in some other tanks as well, so I was really looking at something that was more of a "ganged" air source. I'm trying to find a source that I can bridge together with 1/2" PVC and run on/off valves in to the tanks for air flow control in a given tank. Any ideas?
    Thanks,
    Aaron

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  • lastone75
    replied
    neilfj
    i was thinking of doing something like that. with a proppler type agitater. but the problem is that the motor would need a shaft extender and all parts in the sulution would need to be titanuim or aluminum. out of aluminum would be the cheapest. but making something shouldn't be to hard. also the motor should be sheilded from the solution.

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  • neilfj
    replied
    I don't know if any method is superior or inferior to any other method. All you want to do is move the solution around rather vigorously. What it comes down to is what is cheapest, easiest to setup, operate and maintain in your particular situation.

    It sounds like in your situation it may be better/easier/cheaper to set up a mechanical method of agitating the solution. Without knowing the exact layout of your set up, you could go simple...for each tank, a small, variable speed motor to which a submerged paddle or propeller is attached. The paddle will provide the agitation, and by adjusting the speed of the motor, adjust the amount of agitation.

    Complex would be a drive wheel attached to each tank. Each drive wheel would have a paddle attached. Then connecting all the drive wheels to a single motor/drive shaft.

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  • whistule
    replied
    Eastex,


    I'd go with Neilfj's plan but here's the info anyway as I know my system does work.
    I couldn't tell you what volume the pump produces but you do need to have one outlet per tank on the air pump (or alternatively you can swap over the air line). My pump has 4 outlets which is quite handy as you don't have to do too much switching over. I managed to pick one up through ebay from an aquarium/pet shop. It looks pretty similar to the ones on this site >> http://www.enkoi.com/pumps/boyu.html . I'd get something with a bit more power and a variable output if I was you.
    The tube is snaked round the bottom of the tank and perforated with holes to give good coverage.

    I suspect from what neil and fiber are saying that this is probably a slightly inferior but cheaper option ??

    Leave a comment:


  • neilfj
    replied
    Rather than aeration, perhaps you should look into agitation by re-circulating the electrolyte. Personally, I think it is easier to move the electrolyte around rather than trying to make sure you have complete coverage using bubbles.

    Boyu has a number of water pumps for use in aquariums. I've been using the 1300B model which is sufficient for a 5 gallon bucket, but they have others and they seem to tolerate the electrolyte solution.

    I posted a response in the thread mentioned in whistules reply above detailing how it was used. It should be easy to up-size it by using multiple pumps or larger output pumps.

    Leave a comment:

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