Advice on gun for newb

[Bigrhamr]

This isn't the usual question about which inexpensive equipment to buy. The question is whether I would be wasting my money buying high end equip when I'm just starting out. Here's my situation, I make a line of decorative items, mostly from 12-16 ga. steel. Typically I pay out about $1,500 a month for powder coating and I think it's time to move that in house.
So I start shopping and find a Gema optiflex gun, slightly used for what seems to be a really good deal but still obviously a lot more than the cheaper guns. I'm a firm believer in buying good quality tools when I make a living using them so I'm okay with spending the $. So here's the question, Would starting out with a pro quality gun possibly help me out during the learning curve, fewer rejects, less re-work, less headaches and frustration in general? Or, is this one of those cases where having the bells and whistles would be a detriment and I'd be better off buying an "entry level" gun?

[SCOTTRODS]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

Mr. Hamr,
I envy your ability to buy big. The thing to be most aware of is support for the gun you buy, if you buy big. I have a local powder supply guy that is a wealth of help and information with equipment and powders. If you have a line on a great used gun, ask the supplier if they offer set-up and support for that gun. Sometimes that will be the deal maker/breaker in my world. I'm not going to direct you to any specific gun. I think Wagner or Gema are both "the best" guns. There are cheaper guns and all kinds of other guns to choose from, but those two have more experienced coaters lately it seems. If you were going to be producing much more quantities, I'd even throw in Nordson, as they seem to have been the choice for a great many years, for a large portion of the production minded powdercoating world.

Good luck in your purchase.

[FigureLLC]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

normally i'd advise to start with an entry level gun, but if you're already paying $1500 a month for pc'ing, you'd pay even an expensive gun off fast.

one of the top things to consider: do you do a lot of the same color? we don't. we do a lot of small parts and need to be able to change colors *fast*. the nordson sure coat best met our needs. we can color change in 2 minutes without sweat. there are a lot more mid-level guns available now than when we made our jump to the nordson. if it had been available, we'd have tried the hypersmooth. from what i've heard about on these forums, it's simple to use, highly effective, and quick to change colors. ...and 1/4 - 1/3 of the cost of some of the big name systems.

oh, and another myth: more expensive is better. not so. if you're making wall art or something that is pretty flat, you won't have any problems with any system. more expensive guns have more adjustability, and therefore have more variables that can be confusing at first. i liken it to a ferarri vs a honda. the ferrari is more capable, but more difficult to drive and work on. and someone experienced with the honda could outdrive someone inexperienced with the ferrari. the key is to find the balance that's best for you.

spend $100 on an entry gun (uh, not a harbor freight), get a feel for it (what you like and dislike about it, it's strengths and weaknesses, how you end up using it) and let that determine what better system you get.

[Harleydad]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

I agree with scottrods. Go with a professional gun, it sounds as though you'll make up the initial investment in no time.

Gema and Wagner would also be my choices.

I don't how much powder you'll be shooting, the size and geometry of the parts and wether you'll need to do multiple coats, but you just can't beat the adjustability/features of the professional guns. Which ever way you go I would suggest adding a true fluidizing hopper to your equipment. It does not have to be a 50 lb. hopper, a 3-5lb version should suffice.

[Bigrhamr]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

Thanks for all the replies. Can someone please elaborate on the fluidized hopper? The Gema I'm looking has the vibrating box feed setup.

[XK120DHC]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

I hate to be the "floater in the punch bowl", here, but I'm going to disagree with the other guys..
While having a quality PC Gun is great if you are already "in the business", I can only say that the high quality gun is not going to make you a great powdercoater.. As an analogy.. I have a very expensive Sharpe HVLP Paint Gun.. while I can "paint" with it, my painting ability stinks at best! (I limit myself to painting the epoxy & "fill" primers and let the "real painters" do the color/top coats).
Point being, like any other finishing disipline, you cannot sell your mistakes. Investing in an "inexpensive" (as opposed to "cheap) gun and equipment will allow you to "learn" powdercoating on "lesser" (aka: Hidden) items and hone your skills, while your current professional PCer is still handling your primary, visible business.
Of course, I wish you the best in your endevours.

[Harleydad]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

Here's some reading for you. Page 5 mentions a bit about a fluidizing hopper.

http://www.nordson.com/NR/rdonlyres/BEC14EE9-BB4C-4C84-B030-ED0405214F37/0/PWR0669.pdf

[Willis]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

If you have no experience at all I would try a cheap hobby gun to get the hang of it and make sure its something you want to do... Then if all is good get one of the big dog guns...

[ty1854]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

I would get the best gun you can afford. There will be a learning curve with both the cheap hobby guns and the high dollar pro guns. Regardless of the gun you pick you have to master the same set of skills so you might as well learn on the gun you will be using long term. If you don't want to invest in a high dollar gun, I would suggest either the Hyper Smooth 02 system from Columbia Coatings or the King gun system from Powder By The Pound. I personally own the Hyper Smooth 02 system with the Multi coat nozzle and I love it!

[Harleydad]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

I hate to be the "floater in the punch bowl", here, but I'm going to disagree with the other guys..
While having a quality PC Gun is great if you are already "in the business", I can only say that the high quality gun is not going to make you a great powdercoater.. As an analogy.. I have a very expensive Sharpe HVLP Paint Gun.. while I can "paint" with it, my painting ability stinks at best! (I limit myself to painting the epoxy & "fill" primers and let the "real painters" do the color/top coats).
Point being, like any other finishing disipline, you cannot sell your mistakes. Investing in an "inexpensive" (as opposed to "cheap) gun and equipment will allow you to "learn" powdercoating on "lesser" (aka: Hidden) items and hone your skills, while your current professional PCer is still handling your primary, visible business.
Of course, I wish you the best in your endevours.

It seems to me Bigrhamr has an established biz if he's spending $1500/mo for coating services. I agree with Ty that there is a learning curve when starting out regardless of the gun, and you should get the gun that will serve you long term. If dollars are not the issues and you want good tools to get the job done get the pro gun right off the bat. No reason start the learning curve over by starting out with an "entry level" gun and then moving up.

[smokinbird89]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

How big are the pieces that you are working on? Are they all the same color? I also have the Hypersmooth and love it. It makes for easy color changes and very affordable. I looked at several guns including ones that were box feed and I just dont shoot enough of the same color to make for it to be worth the price. Just my .02 worth.

[Bigrhamr]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

It seems to me Bigrhamr has an established biz if he's spending $1500/mo for coating services. I agree with Ty that there is a learning curve when starting out regardless of the gun, and you should get the gun that will serve you long term. If dollars are not the issues and you want good tools to get the job done get the pro gun right off the bat. No reason start the learning curve over by starting out with an "entry level" gun and then moving up.

Yes, that's it. I'm not looking to try coating and see if I want to do it or not, there WILL be coating happening in my shop one way or another. If it turns out that I can't develop the skills I'll hire somone who can. As far as the money goes it's not that I have extra piles of it laying around, it's just that I recognize the fact that it wouldn't take many batches of parts coming out good, vs. rejects to pay the extra up front costs.

"How big are the pieces that you are working on? Are they all the same color? I also have the Hypersmooth and love it. It makes for easy color changes and very affordable. I looked at several guns including ones that were box feed and I just dont shoot enough of the same color to make for it to be worth the price. Just my .02 worth."

The typical parts that will be done in batches range from about 3 square inch flat parts up to box and round shaped sheetmetal structures at 2'x2'x3' or so.
Quick color changes are probably not a priority at this time. Right now I do (have done) more than 60% black, 35% white with an occasional custom color thrown in once every week or 2. As far as batch sizes I'm considering an oven around 4'x6'x6' and thinking that I would typically fill it up. Once a month or so I do something bigger that would still have to be sent out, don't see a bigger oven paying for itself in my case.
That said once I have my own setup going I'll have more flexibilty in offering custom colors and eventually will likely take in some outside work so the color change is not something I want to overlook completely. I have been reading up on the Hypersmooth and it does sound like a pretty good setup at a reasonable price, I think I'll be shopping in that level and up.

[Harleydad]

Re: Advice on gun for newb

Box feed and true fluidizing hopper set ups are not difficult to change colors with. It does not take as long as some say it does. As with anything, it takes more time until you get the process down that works for you.

Good luck with your quest.