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First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

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  • First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

    New to the forum and thought I'd ask for help after loitering for a while and finding ALOT of information on here about building an oven. I am a figure it out yourself type of guy and don’t like asking for help much since all the information is around but for this project, I do in fact need help with the PID/ssr control.

    I've started my oven for PC using a filing cabinet 36''(w)x56''(h)x19"(d) which I got for 20 bucks, 3 5/8" steel studs and using a whirlpool double oven for parts which has 2 3000watt and 2 1950watt elements (not exactly sure if its 1950watt or not, cant remember). After reading, seems like everyone is saying to use a PID and SSR setup to control the oven, so that’s what I have desired to do. Now, onto some questions I have that I'm sure you guys can answer.

    -For this size oven will the 2 3000watt elements be enough or should I just use all 4 elements from the parts oven?
    -Is there a way to tell if these elements can run off a 220v circuit or that doesn’t matter? I plan on getting 220v hooked up in the garage, that way I can finally use my 220v welder.
    -Will one 40amp ssr be enough for the 2 3000watt elements? If needed, use 2 40amp ssr's if all 4 elements need to be used for that size oven?
    -Where is the best place to put the thermocouple? Top of the oven sence heat rises?
    -I also plan on using the 4 oven lights and circulation fan from the oven. The lights are 35watts each (I think) and not sure about the fan. Do I need to know anything special for the lights/fan for wiring wise?

    -Now what PID and SSR would you guys recommend for this setup? I am trying to stay with the lower cost PIDs (eBay)

    Which schematic would be the best way to setup the wire? But only using 2 or 4 elements? (Scroll down to the schematic on each link)
    PID Controller
    http://forum.caswellplating.com/oven...-watlow-2.html
    http://forum.caswellplating.com/oven...g-diagram.html
    homemade paint oven (more pics added) - Sniper's Hide Forums

    EDIT: The element in the pic is the bigger one, (3000w) jus seeing how it will fit, might have to mount them on the side.
    Let me know what you guys think or should do for this build
    Thanks for the help in advance
    Attached Files
    Last edited by 8052jz; 12-21-2011, 02:41 PM.

  • #2
    Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

    Originally posted by 8052jz View Post
    New to the forum and thought I'd ask for help after loitering for a while and finding ALOT of information on here about building an oven. I am a figure it out yourself type of guy and don’t like asking for help much since all the information is around but for this project, I do in fact need help with the PID/ssr control.

    I've started my oven for PC using a filing cabinet 36''(w)x56''(h)x19"(d) which I got for 20 bucks, 3 5/8" steel studs and using a whirlpool double oven for parts which has 2 3000watt and 2 1950watt elements (not exactly sure if its 1950watt or not, cant remember). After reading, seems like everyone is saying to use a PID and SSR setup to control the oven, so that’s what I have desired to do. Now, onto some questions I have that I'm sure you guys can answer.

    -For this size oven will the 2 3000watt elements be enough or should I just use all 4 elements from the parts oven? Assuming the dimensions noted are the ID, you will only need 3-4k watts. 6K would cause the oven to heat too quickly.
    -Is there a way to tell if these elements can run off a 220v circuit or that doesn’t matter? I plan on getting 220v hooked up in the garage, that way I can finally use my 220v welder. All standard kitchen type ovens use 240 volt elements
    -Will one 40amp ssr be enough for the 2 3000watt elements? If needed, use 2 40amp ssr's if all 4 elements need to be used for that size oven? 3k watts is only 13 amps, so even if you go with 4k, one 40A ssr is sufficient.
    -Where is the best place to put the thermocouple? Top of the oven sence heat rises?
    -I also plan on using the 4 oven lights and circulation fan from the oven. The lights are 35watts each (I think) and not sure about the fan. Do I need to know anything special for the lights/fan for wiring wise? Any wiring going into the oven will need to be hi-temp

    -Now what PID and SSR would you guys recommend for this setup? I am trying to stay with the lower cost PIDs (eBay) Do not purchase any of the low cost pids being sold on ebay. The documentation is so poor it's possible that you will never get it to work.

    Which schematic would be the best way to setup the wire? But only using 2 or 4 elements? (Scroll down to the schematic on each link)
    PID Controller
    http://forum.caswellplating.com/oven...-watlow-2.html
    http://forum.caswellplating.com/oven...g-diagram.html
    homemade paint oven (more pics added) - Sniper's Hide Forums

    EDIT: The element in the pic is the bigger one, (3000w) jus seeing how it will fit, might have to mount them on the side.
    Let me know what you guys think or should do for this build
    Thanks for the help in advance
    See comments in red.

    The second link above is a discussion I had with another member concerning 3 phase power so that isn't appropriate for your needs. I can't comment on the other links.
    Last edited by ed_denu; 12-21-2011, 11:03 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

      Awsome, thank you for answering all the questions.

      I took a closer look at all my elements to see what wattage they all are and I found out that I have 2 3000watt and 2 2000watt elements. So according to Eds answer (and yes that is the ID of the oven) ill be using the 2 2000watt elements for this oven.

      After doing some more research, I might end up getting Ted's controll box becuase after pricing my own controll box DIY, it will end up almost the same cost as Teds, plus it will same time and the headache of wiring it up. Thats with wiring, pid, ssr, power block, project box, swithces, indicator lights and so on.

      In the mean time, I've done a little work on the framing. I found it way easyer and faster to just weld the studs to the cabinet instead of drilling and screwing. Hope it will hold up when it heats up but sence it the oven wont get red hot all around, I think it should be fine.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

        I got a chance to work on the oven last night. Almost finished up the framing for the insulation. Sides and front are done. Tonight I will finish the frame for the back and maybe get the elements and lights mounted.
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

          Here is the schematic you asked about for an Auber Timer PID SWA-2441 with a 240 volt contactor coil.Auber Timer PID w Contactor.pdf

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

            Awsome Ed thanks a bunch for that schematic!! Now what high temp gauge wire should I be using to wire up this whole oven?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

              Got the door frame almost finished. Still working on the window mounting using aluminum angle as a frame/mount for the glass
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

                Got a bit more done last night. The elements/lights all mounted and ready to go. I also ordered my PID, thermocouple, contactor, switch’s, and alarm all from Auber. I should have those in by the end of this week. I also asked a friend that works at a metal shop for a quote on the galv. sheet metal so I can start closing it up, but first I will be wiring up all the instruments.

                Where is everyone getting there junction box from for the controls? HD has them for 30-60 bucks which I think might be a bit too much. I’ve looked on eBay but not sure of the size that I will need. What size box does everyone usually get, just so I have an idea?

                For this size of an oven, would a fan be necessary? I don’t want to spend 100 or so, on a fan. I’ve got the small one out of my parts oven but not sure if it will hold up to the heat of the oven? I was planning on making a fan blade for it and having only the fan blade in the oven than the motor of the fan on the other side of the sheet metal? Will this work? Any suggestions? And where is the ideal place to have the type of fan? Middle, top or between the two elements.

                Thermocouple, where is the best place to put this? I figured on the top middle of the oven as heat rises and you will need the readings from the top of the oven which means the whole oven will be at the set temp?

                Few pic's of the progress made so far. You can see that I have a vent used from the parts oven in the right hand corner. There will be another piece that will slide on top of that which than will exit out of the oven.
                Attached Files

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

                  Originally posted by 8052jz View Post
                  Got a bit more done last night. The elements/lights all mounted and ready to go. I also ordered my PID, thermocouple, contactor, switch’s, and alarm all from Auber. I should have those in by the end of this week. I also asked a friend that works at a metal shop for a quote on the galv. sheet metal so I can start closing it up, but first I will be wiring up all the instruments.

                  Where is everyone getting there junction box from for the controls? HD has them for 30-60 bucks which I think might be a bit too much. I’ve looked on eBay but not sure of the size that I will need. What size box does everyone usually get, just so I have an idea? Size depends on the number of components, layout, etc. I feel it is best to lay out the components to get a general idea of how you want everything mounted. Do you want the controls on the face of the enclosure or the side? Think about this and then when you look at laying out the components you will have a better idea of the depth of the box required.

                  For this size of an oven, would a fan be necessary? I don’t want to spend 100 or so, on a fan. I’ve got the small one out of my parts oven but not sure if it will hold up to the heat of the oven? I was planning on making a fan blade for it and having only the fan blade in the oven than the motor of the fan on the other side of the sheet metal? Will this work? Any suggestions? And where is the ideal place to have the type of fan? Middle, top or between the two elements. Many ovens do not have a fan, but it would certainly help with getting constant temps. If you are only going to place a fan blade within the oven, then it should be on the top, forcing air down. Recirculating fans should input at the top and exit at the bottom.

                  Thermocouple, where is the best place to put this? I figured on the top middle of the oven as heat rises and you will need the readings from the top of the oven which means the whole oven will be at the set temp? Two thirds or so up from the bottom toward the side but protruding out somewhat. Leave some slack so if you do temp tests at different spots within the oven you can move the tc if necessary.

                  Few pic's of the progress made so far. You can see that I have a vent used from the parts oven in the right hand corner. There will be another piece that will slide on top of that which than will exit out of the oven.
                  see answers in red

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

                    Before I purchased anything electrical from HD or Lowes, I'd definitely check with a couple of your local electrical wholesale supply companies. I was able to get a blank metal box 8x8x6 for only $14 plus tax. They will have several to choose from and should be your cheapest bet. As far as a blower, like I said with my recent oven build, before I shell out $100+ for a standard thermally shielded blower I will explore circulation fans for convection ovens first. They are much cheaper on ebay and I don't see why they can't be made to work.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

                      Thats exactly what I did yesterday. I went to a freinds electric shop called MARVAC and hes got almost everything you could think of in the electrical department, but no high temp fiberglass insilated wire . I was able to find a box for $14 as well with the same demesions as yours, might be the same one.

                      As for the circulation fan, I might try to use the one I got out of the parts oven and see if I can make or find just the blade to put on it. The only thing I am not sure of is how much air it will be pushing around. Do you have a source for those convection fans?
                      Last edited by 8052jz; 01-12-2012, 12:31 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

                        So I finally I got some stuff done for the oven last night. Started to build the Control box after getting all the parts for it! I'm thinking to have the box done with the wiring by this Friday, I hope! Here are a few shots of how I mounted everything.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

                          I got stuck on the wiring for the control box and asked Ed for some help. Posting up two diagram that I think are the correct way of wiring up these switches I got from auber. Just want to get a second opinion on it and double check my work so I dont run into any problems when it comes down to fireing up the oven.

                          First diagram is the fan and light switch wiring. That one is the self explanitory I beleive.
                          Second is the PID > Switch > contactor wiring. This is where I got stuck.
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

                            The first diagram for the basic switch wiring is fine. If you want to combine the leads for the switches for the light and fan that would be ok as the switches are rated 10A.

                            The schematic I sent you used a simple on/off non lit switch for the contactor. If you want to use this type lighted switch then the wiring needs to change slightly. Your diagram is basically correct, just remove the red wire from the power block that intersects right behind the fuse. It's redundant to the circuit and serves no purpose. If I recall correctly you're using a 240V coil on the contactor so the rest is fine.
                            Last edited by ed_denu; 01-31-2012, 03:30 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: First oven build+ help with PID control wiring

                              Thats what I figured as well for the second diagram about the red wire after the fuse and thanks for confirming this Ed. You are very helpful.

                              Revised diagram is below.
                              Attached Files

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